Shirt fitting, measuring, and curious results

[amethyst73]

So you remember how I mentioned that nearly everything in the shirt I made felt small? I just did an experiment suggested both by my husband and (effectively) by onyoukai (from this page he sent me).  I compared the various measurements of the top I made with a (knitted, but loose and comfy fit that I rarely stretch while wearing) top I already own.  Here's the lowdown.  (I haven't done sleeve cap measurements yet.)

Shoulder width:
 Shirt that fits: 15.25"
 Shirt I made: 15.5"

Upper back width:
  Shirt that fits: 14 7/8"
  Shirt I made: 15"

Back width:
  Shirt that fits: 19"
  Shirt I made: 19"

So far, so good, eh?  Here's the kicker:

Circumference:
  Shirt that fits: 18"
  Shirt I made: 16" (probably actually 16.25, given measurement off pattern)

Well.  That would probably do it, eh?

Short sleeve circumference ends up putting the back measurements higher than they ought to be - not in the right place at all, compared to the shirt that fits.  Which is presumably why the back and shoulder end up feeling somewhat pinched.

Clearly, I'll need to mess around with the sleeve circumference in my next (muslin!) draft. Reminder to self: distribute extra length along both front and back (which is going to mean messing with the dart, isn't it?).  It should be an inch each on the front and the back - seam allowances are built into the original pattern, so I can go off of that.  (Or should I put all that extra length on the back??  Maybe try a couple of versions, see what works better.)

Dart messing thoughts: I can probably use the original pattern and mark the main dart dot off of it relative to [not sure - originally thinking bottom of the armscye, but that'll be in a new place, so if I reference that the dart tip will be ~1" lower, which I don't want], draw a line to the bottom of the armscye, measure the angle of the original dart, and duplicate that on the new pattern.  Right?

The other thing I'll need to do at the same time is to add width at the waist - a good 5 inches total, or 1.25" off the edges on front and back.

I still may also buy the larger size pattern and see how it does before adjustments, mostly in planning for future garments.  Also, really need to get a designer's curve now.

Comments

[onyoukai.livejournal.com]

Did the shirt have a bust dart that opened into the armscye? Here's how you can avoid even messing with the dart at all while tweaking the upper front width, armscye shape, etc.

First, if you don't have extra paper already, I suggest getting a big roll of tracing paper or architect's drafting paper. (I buy them on Amazon because it's cheaper than an office supply store or art store, but if your local Joann or Michael's carries them, it might be cheaper there with the coupons.)

Make a copy of your shirt front, making sure to mark the dart legs, too. Then, using a ruler or yardstick as a guide, mark a straight line from the bottom hem up to the dart point.

Get your paper-cutting scissors and cut this copied shirt front pattern piece out. Then cut out the dart wedge. Finally, cut into that vertical line, starting at the hem and going up to, but NOT through, the dart point. It's very important that you leave that tiny little hinge of paper behind.

So, now your front consists of two pieces that are held together by just a little hinge. Swing that loose part from its original position toward the other direction so that you're closing the armscye dart. (You can put a little piece or two of clear tape there to help keep it in place.) Now, instead of an armscye dart, you have a dart that opens up into the bottom hem.

This is referred to as transferring dart excess. You have not changed the measurement or fit of the pattern in any way, all you've done is put the dart in a new location, where it serves the same purpose and won't be in the way of manipulating the armscye.

When you're done with your armscye and upper front fit tweaks, you can do this all over again in reverse to put the dart back in the armscye.

[amethyst73.livejournal.com]

I was hoping you'd chime in! :D

I bought a big package of tissue paper a week or so ago, knowing that my next step was going to be making pattern copies and messing with them, so that part is done. (I'll look into tracing paper, though, as it sounds rather more substantial than tissue.)

And happily, it turns out that the dart (in this pattern, anyway) goes out to the side of the shirt, a good couple of inches below the current bottom of the armscye. It should therefore remain out of the way while messing with this armscye.

But what you've said now makes one of the articles (http://hungryzombiecouture.blogspot.com/2007/03/my-cup-does-not-runneth-over.html) that I found regarding small breast adjustments make a lot more sense. The article was initially sort of confusing because she's working with a dress that's got both side and vertical darts. Your explanation, however, is EXTREMELY clear and very helpful. I'm copying that into my virtual notebook!

[onyoukai.livejournal.com]

Yep, in that article, she's doing exactly what I just described. You'll find more hits on Google if you run a search for "slash and spread" - that's what this type of flat pattern manipulation is called.

You also might want to check out a book called Fast Fit written by Sandra Betzina. It's all about identifying characteristics of ill garment fit, the order to address fitting problems, and how to tweak the pattern to try and fix them. The entire book is broken down by section and garment type. In upper body, there's a section for the shoulders, for the back, for the breasts, for sleeves; the lower body has sections on waist, hip, thighs, knee angle, skirt hem slant; and probably more that I don't remember off the top of my head.

I have both Fast Fit and More Fabric Savvy, and I like her material from what I've read. Her writing is very straightforward, easy to understand, and thorough in explanation. My only complaint is that she seems to assume that her audience is entirely female and she never addresses menswear, but this is more my own frustration from the simple fact that there are so few books out there for menswear to begin with. The majority of Fast Fit is fairly unisex though; I just never use the chapters that have to do with breast adjustments or skirts. However, those sections are just as comprehensive as the others.

[amethyst73.livejournal.com]

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<adds to library holds, so I can take a look at it b/f ordering a copy>

I can imagine it must be difficult to find stuff having to do with menswear. 99% of the videos I've watched having to do with sewing are done by women; both my husband and I have noticed how gender-skewed the hobby seems to be.

[onyoukai.livejournal.com]

The thing is, the gender-skewing just perpetuates the cycle. I know several guys who WANTED to get into sewing, but lost all interest and motivation when they went to take a sewing class and were forced to make stuff like skirts, aprons, and women's clothes. Or, they went into a patternmaking class but all they ever addressed was women's fitting, bust manipulations, and skirts. (I almost got burned out on that second one, it was a struggle for me to care enough to finish any assignments.) There would be other guys in the same sewing or patternmaking classes as me, and 2 months later I was the only one who didn't drop out.

I have a small collection of books on men's tailoring, but most of them are strictly pattern drafting books without a whole lot of focus on fitting. There's one I have that's amazing, but it's about suits. It does a great job of showing how to find and fix problems with jackets, pants, and vests, but the thing that never gets talked about at all is a simple SHIRT. There's only one book I know of that's about nothing but men's shirts - "Shirtmaking" by David Page Coffin - and it's TERRIBLE. There's nothing in it regarding fit or technique that I didn't already know, and literally half the book is the author being a ranting douchebag, ripping into styles he doesn't like and claiming his box-fitting ugly shit is the only "real shirt". (Avoid anything by that author, he's a dick)

[amethyst73.livejournal.com]

I just bet it's self perpetuating! :( (I wonder if running "Sewing for Guys" classes might be a future career for someone?)

The book doesn't do shirts??!? But shirts are, like... SHIRTS. They need to fit well. I mean, if you've got a fitted suit, having a shirt underneath that's too big in any dimension (for example) will look kind of oogly. And too small is too small. You can presumably use the same rules for armscye and back fitting for guys' shirts as womens', but no clue what else you'd need to do. :/

Congratulations to you for sticking with it!

[onyoukai.livejournal.com]

There's this ridiculous presumption that men's shirts don't need to fit except at the chest. The rest of the shirt just needs to be a box that hangs straight down and then apparently we can call it good. Because, you know, all men are overweight tubes.

They completely ignore the fact that chest-waist-hip is something just as important for menswear. Men often DO have a hip measurement that's larger than the chest, but many books that I've seen either ignore hip altogether or just assume it's the same size as the chest. And thin guys like me live in the land of pixies and unicorns because we don't exist and are just not worth drafting for, apparently. (This was my biggest problem with Coffin's book, because this was his stance and he's a DICK about it)

Box-shaped shirts (often referred to as "American cut") do NOT look good on skinny or toned guys who have a waist. There's a lot of extra fabric that just gathers and pouches there. It's uncomfortable to tuck all that bulk into the pants and it looks childish. And on top of the box shape, there's usually even more fabric inserted across the back and pleated into a yoke as a quick fix for extra back measurements (butt or forward arm motion).

The "European cut", on the other hand (so named because Europeans generally believe in tailoring and fit) does take body proportions into account and the shirt is drafted to follow the contours of the body. This is far more flattering for thin guys. The side seam tapers in toward the waist, and there might be body darts or vertical panels (what would be called "princess seams" in women's clothes) to help the fit without disproportionately warping the side seam shape. Maybe I can find more European books if I look hard enough...

But yes, most of the same general fit concepts are the same. The problem is that there's just a lot of embedded stereotyping when it comes to menswear, and the information to correct it is often lacking.

[amethyst73.livejournal.com]

I understand 100% with the fit of American shirts for thin guys (my husband is one, too). He doesn't have a lot of occasions to wear his tuxedo, but while the jacket and pants are fine, the shirt has way too much material, kind of everywhere. As you say, it looks bad when it's tucked in. His PhD graduation gown was worse - I think he was misfitted for it, and he looked a little like a Hogwarts kid who has yet to grow into this year's robes.

He would also sympathize with you in the "small men don't exist" category. You probably know that it's almost impossible to find a men's size M jacket or pajamas in brick-and-mortar stores, and totally impossible to find an S. (L and above - no problem, of course. But not all men are overweight!!!!) He finally started buying light jackets off Amazon a few years ago, which solved the problem.

Are there European pattern companies that you could go to for shirt patterns?

[onyoukai.livejournal.com]

Yep, I have those same problems. I've long since given up trying to find gloves, and I have to buy all my shoes online. If I had all the time in the world, I'd just make all my own clothes, but unfortunately life stuff prohibits that. =/

Yes, when I use commercial patterns, I almost always use Burda. Burda is a German company, and they assume a shorter base height and weight than the American companies do (Simplicity, McCall's, Vogue, Butterick). The American companies assume a base height of 5'10" or 5'11" (!!! NOT MAKING THIS UP), whereas Burda's base height is 5'7" or 5'8". Burda assumes a thin physique; the American companies are all for fat guys and lumberjacks.

I do collect American patterns too, but I use them strictly as style references so I can see how they accomplish something and then I apply it to my own patterns. The patterns I actually use for garment sewing are either self-drafted or modified Burda. (Once in a blue moon I might use a modified Vogue pattern, because they aren't -as- bad as the other American companies...)

[amethyst73.livejournal.com]

Wah...? 5'10"/5'11"??!? Geez, men aren't *all* basketball stars in this country!

Giant JoAnn's sale today. :D Got myself a combo Fiskars pack of cutting mat, rotary cutter, and 6" wide ruler - hellooooo, faster fabric cutting for certain things! And a designer's curve. Plus fabric for the easiest-looking skirt in the world (http://www.shrimpsaladcircus.com/2012/08/sew-super-simple-skirt-sewing-101.html) to go with MVFS(TM), and, well, some really pretty purple stuff that's going to get made into a pair of shorts because I Could Not Resist Pretty Fabric On Sale.

JoAnn's is a dangerous, dangerous place.

[onyoukai.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I think that's called a dirndl skirt, I remember reading about that in my patternmaking textbook. The idea is just starting with a rectangle, and you fit it to the waist with gathering or pleats. It's the type of geometric garment construction you see in a lot of historical garments. Pants would be the same idea, except you have two rectangles, one for each leg, and a giant diamond shape for the crotch.

Fiskar's spring-loaded scissors are the best. I have both the fabric shears and a pair of 2" snips.

I had to ban myself from anymore fabric shopping at Joann for the time being, I have WAY too much I've accumulated from costumes that need to actually get made. I don't seem capable of walking out of that store while spending less than $60-80 at a time.

[amethyst73.livejournal.com]

Yup, that's the type of skirt exactly.

I think I need to stop buying fabric too; I only have the 2 projects' worth (though it was a heck of a temptation to get fabric for the next shirt attempt; I had to keep reminding myself that it'll probably be a month or so before I'm that far, longer if I make the skirt and shorts first), and it'll take more time than I think to do those. There will be other sales, and there's always perpetual 40% coupons, and the pretty fabrics will all still be there some months from now...